Causes of death. British intentions were originally meant to be non violent trade but later became a centuries long occupation that led to 1.8 billion deaths. You can have a communist state that doesn't commit genocide, but you cannot have a capitalist state without poor people. Rather the system at large kills around 10 million a year from preventable causes. For example, Congolese people (especially children) work in cheap, poorly built mines to gather resources that we need for Apple products. I do think some more communistic system would be a positive development, as would changes in international law and trade. There is no expectation that the spread of the virus will be halted within the U.S. In the 1942-1945 WW2 Bengali Holocaust (Indian Holocaust, WW2 Bengal Famine) 6-7 million Indians were deliberately starved to death for strategic reasons by the British with Australian complicity (Australia was complicit by denying starving India food from its huge wartime food stores). Continuing, he says from the book that the highest possible estimate is 93 million while the lowest being 65 million. The population was growing at a rate of about 5% per year and there was a requirement of net imports of about 1-2 million tons of grain per annum to make up for deficiencies… Behrens’ figures for grain shipments (in tons) for India in 1942-1945 are as follows: 1942 (30,000), 1943 (303,000), 1944 (639,000) and 1945 (871,000). We were all young and naive at your age. Well that's settled then! In the 1769-1770  Great Bengal Famine 10 million out of 30 million over-taxed Bengalis starved to death(6), (13). Can hunger in the third world be solved without imposing socialism on the capitalist west? Neglected? Austrian Leninist 4,099 views. Yes, they are capitalist. Or were the African slavers also capitalist ? Going by your numbers you should be evangelizing for fascism, not socialism. Socialism cannot be limited to one country. The short answer is yes. So I've talked a lot about the death toll of people of color but, capitalism is the great equalizer. ... A place to discuss Capitalism and capitalist interests on Reddit. This anthology is a collaboration by social justice advocates like Ajamu Baraka of the… Does that mean we should relax the punishment for killers and ban cars? or simply to embrace communism altogether. Random comrades? All of these labourers are poorly compensated for the important work that they do. The answer is too damn many. They aren't starving, but all of the starving countries in the world are capitalist, and yes, they have property rights and free trade. It would be unfair to pin most of colonization on capitalism since it began in the 15th century, and the earliest form of capitalism didn't come around until a century later, but the death toll of Australia, Opium in China, and conquest of India will remain. Prof. Richard Wolff:… “Capitalism on a Ventilator: The Impact of COVID-19 in China & the U.S” chronicles the terminal decline of capitalism. Surely Fascism is the best system according to that argument! GSE Adsense. If these numbers are true, so what? Are you saying the starving countries you just named are capitalist? Since 2016, the term has been used in the United States and Canada to refer to perceived absurdities, contradictions, crises, injustices, and inequality created by modern business development. Hunger is cured by providing food to the hungry. Under this circumstances it was hardly possible to manage it other way. The Death Toll of Capitalism The mode of production wherein there exists a class of people who own the very means to livelihood and a class of property-less workers leads to class antagonism. It is, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, the worst of all systems, except for everything else. Bullet and bomb deaths seem to be common metrics. If the NEEDS of the people were the necessary factor for economic not the exchange in money, starvation would end quite fast. He and co … Capitalism Death Toll. And the British conquest of India caused 35 million deaths, not 1.8 billion lmao. Don't end up blaming the very idea of communism. Looking again at the Bengal Famine, that was caused by exporting food for profit rather than distributing it and that would have been avoided in a socialist system. The US exports a lot of its problems, and definitely causes substantial deaths outside of its own soil. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. It requires a degree of self-confidence I did not possess. (Info / ^Contact), Wait are you seriously trying to compare gross totals between two systems with wildly different lifespans and populations. But people are starving nowadys because our imperailist countrys wealth is made by exploiting poor ones. The only way to prevent deaths from poverty is to incorporate communist/socialist policies (universal healthcare, social welfare, etc.) So I don't think the political-economic system of the USSR, for example, exhausted all the possibilities for what we can call communism. You cant believe they just killed people for fun. However, counter revolutonarys were killed, of course they were. In explaining why Courtois lied, they admitted that the editor was “obsessed” with trying to reach 100 million. 1 million died in the gulags during the war (1933 to 1945), and then 2-3 million over the whole Stalin regime. The 1942 shipment involved 2 lots from Australia contracted for at the rate of 15,000 tons per month to supply the Indian Army (the balance of the demand was not shipped that year). Yeah that's complete bullshit. Question 2.1 . Sri Lanka has revised down the death toll from last Sunday's wave of bombings by more than 100, to "about 253", the health ministry says. I don't think the terms are exactly interchangeable, but I'm just running with communism.) This, combined with the belief that wealth was finite, led the wealthy to colonise other countries and set up systems that mimicked the feudal system: all value produced by laborers was extracted by the coloniser (backed by the coloniser's country's monarch usually). The Company gave licenses to the private merchants. Feudalism: 25 million. I mean, seriously, every country in the world could at least agriculture one plant that would could be turned into meals. An active community for challenging, debating, and discussing communism and socialism with originality and flair. Poverty-derived  avoidable mortality (avoidable death, excess mortality, excess death, premature death, untimely death, death that should not have happened) can be estimated as the difference between the actual deaths in a country and the deaths expected for a peaceful, decently governed country with same demographics (birth rate and percentage of children). This gives us 400 years of capitalist deaths to rack up on. (28) This is consonant with the following data from my book “Jane Austen and the Black Hole of British History”: “The population of India at that time [1940] was about 400 million and total grain production was 50 to 70 million tons annually. Capitalism's massive death toll. Capitalism began around the 19th century, not the 16h. It wasn't even a trading company by the time of the Opium Wars. If these starving countries (and only these countries) turned socialist, would the hunger within be eradicated without western help? I don't deny the atrocities of the countries you named. A robust, statistical breakdown, and accompanying commentary on the worth of such an activity itself. Neolibs BTFO by maths and logic as a reddit c*ommie proves that c*pitalism killed more people. Cautious estimates now accept a death toll of 200,000 people by Oct. 1. Capitalism poured the fuel of fascism all over the world, in nations like Germany and Italy, who were heavily indebted by that point, and it only took a handful of demagogues to set the world alight. Few things are so confusing as the term capitalism. Not a member of Pastebin yet? If they can only produce X amounts of food and have 3X citizens then distribution can only do so much. Margolin, another main writer of the book, also admitted in the previous Le Monde article that Courtois’s claim of one million killed in Vietnam is also bogus, stating that he ‘never reported a million’. Do we really need to go further down the rabbit hole? In fact most former British colonies have embraced capitalism and they are doing quite well for themselves. Learn to read, cumball. As indicated in (6) above, the life expectancy of 27 years corresponded to about 10 million Indian avoidable deaths from deprivation per year. It's clearly visible when the stocks of Raytheon, Lockheed Martin,etc fell after the Korean peace deal. If communism killed 100 million, capitalism easily killed as many — if not more. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Now communists get into power and these rich farmers fear for their wealth. This question is ridiculous, but I'll answer it anyways. But in a Capitalist country such as US. We have cropping shares known to us and the vast majority was dedicated to food crops. No, I don't think communism (by whatever definition) alone is an instant solution to the problems of poorer countries. http://ocw.mit.edu/ans7870/21f/21f.027/opium_wars_01/ow1_essay_03.pdf. So when are you moving to a communist country? Close. Capitalists, regardless of how the differ in technicalities, all agree that pursuing profit is fine and should remain possible. Capitalism—and its basis of producing for profit rather than for need—leads to a lot of malnourishment and illogical distribution of resources. On January 25, 2019, a dam burst in the town of Brumadinho, north of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. 4 This is based on some definitions I don't recognise and the whole idea of "starving countries" is problematic. Add to that the internal effects of poverty and inequality and environmental destruction. In contrast Matthew White estimate 29,000,000 deaths from genocide and tyranny, 41,000,000 deaths from man made famine, and 10,000,000 civilians plus 7,000,000 soldiers killed in wars involving communism, some deaths perpetrated by the communists themselves others by their enemies. Do you even brain bro? Let me say that, if socialism would be developed and the colonialist were thrown out of the peoples country, yes, starvation would end. If you do want to blame it on someone, blame it on that particular communist regime. 30,000 US Revolutionary War 35,700 (If Russa removes a Monarch its bad right?) The african slavers were not capitalists, but the European slavers were mercantile capitalists, and used the slaves for mercantilism. Unlike USA which literally attacks any country with no proof and zero accountability. The deconstruction of individual metrics and numbers is tangential. Can hunger in the third world be solved without imposing socialism on the capitalist west? These questions depend on how you define these systems or how broad your definition is. That defensiveness and controversy are the point, not the number itself. The point isn't to nail down a specific number for either side, but to show that people are applying different standards of judgement. On the flip side I know at least two communist countries (China and North Korea) that are openly running concentration camps. 0.18 million tons for a whole year. World's Most Influential Finance and Economics Blog with Trenchant Commentary, Tenacious Investigation and Insider Political/Regulatory Analysis. There is, however, a death toll for capitalism but tabulating it precisely is hard. Thats a fact. Here is the death toll of communism (as I have already posted the death toll of capitalism) all i wanna know is do you think these numbers are fair of your prefers economic system. By the mid-18th century three Presidency towns: Madras, Bombay and Calcutta, had grown in size. The Real Death Toll in Iraq Alright, it's time to get a bit more serious than Brett Favre, much more serious. So there's no scope to look for profit. If you remove China’s actions against poverty from the balance of capitalism, then starvation-rate in capitalism is increasing. We can arrive at a figure having a similar order of magnitude from the 1942 contracted requirement of 15,000 tons per month i.e. I would be really interested what YOU think is the reason for starvation and - I guess you wouldnt think socialism would end starvation - why its not bound to the way goods are produced. The argument for capitalism kills isn't an argument in and of itself, but a counter argument to communism kills. We look for news and topics that can be discussed in a more moderate light. I don't find the distinction between atrocities against a country's own citizens versus others very meaningful, so with that in mind: the US alone, a capitalist country, caused up to 1.2 million deaths in the Iraq War; up to 3 million in the Vietnam War; up to 1.2 million in the Korean War. I don't think it really is possible to judge or completely disentangle all of those things, but I think we should at least recognize the problem. According to America’s Johns Hopkins University, the Chinese death toll is nearly 4,700. And yet millions of tonnes of food go to a waste. Nor do hey say it is purposeful. Same goes for socialist China, where I have to admit it was more of a economic mismanagement. This is the second shooting death within the CHOP, after the first the feckless mayor said she wanted the CHOP removed. In a press briefing held Monday in the White House Rose Garden, President Donald Trump declared that a death toll of 100,000 to 200,000 in the United States as … I'm not sure you can make a coherent argument for any country as being fully "not capitalist" any more than you can make a coherent argument for any country being fully democratic. So a war by a Communist country is an actual justifiable war. That was more than a week ago. The opium traders did not work for the Company. Capitalist (or at least proto-capitalist) countries were responsible for colonialism itself; at the very least, it was sustained by capitalism. De fuck is that first question. Yankee forces or Yankee‐supported surrogate forces have killed over two million Koreans a in three‐year war; three million Vietnamese; over five hundred thousand in aerial conflicts over Laos and Cambodia; over 1.5 million in Angola; over a million in Mozambique; over five hundred thousand in Afghanistan; 500,000–1,000,000 in Indonesia; two hundred thousand in East Timor; one hundred thousand in Nicaragua (combining the Somoza and Reagan eras); over one hundred thousand in Guatemala (in addition to forty thousand who ‘disappeared’); over seven hundred thousand in Iraq as of the 1990s; over sixty thousand in El Salvador; thirty thousand in the ‘dirty war’ of Argentina; 3.5 thousand in Taiwan; twenty thousand in Chile; and many more thousands in Haiti, Manama, Grenada, Brazil, South Africa, Western Sahara, Zaire, Turkey, and more. If they are capitalist, are you saying that the capitalism within these countries is causing internal starvation? Capitalism is responsible for preventable deaths in it's sphere (which is most of the world), food production currently is larger than what is necessary to feed the hungry, most of those are within reach of distribution. It kills white people too. What I am saying is: its more than populistic to say "socialism kills millions of people!!!! It's like if I started going on about the evils of Stalin, or the Civil rights abuses in North Korea or concentration camps in China in order to prove to you the bad effects of communist governments. Compare that with the way China has managed to contain the disease. All political beliefs are welcome! Citizens in western nations had fought for rights and now could no longer be exploited; they ow had property rights. Take a look at this r/AskHistorians thread, The opium wars caused the deaths of around 18000 to 20000 Chinese people. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. These are legitimate questions, or at least the kinds of questions we need to be able to respond to. Isn't that what you want? Capitalism is a system in which the principle of one dollar, one vote, dominates that of one person, ... Barack Obama and the Death of Idealism. (12) Below are listed in rough  chronological order some shocking salient features of the deadly impact of rapacious British imperialism over 2 centuries in British India, Britain’s Auschwitz. (14), Addressing the House of Commons in 1935, racist, imperialist and mass murderer Winston Churchill made an extraordinary confession in stating of the subjugated Indians: “In the standard of life they have nothing to spare. raw download clone embed report print. Capitalism is an economic system based on the private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit . For example, Enver Hoxha and Thomas Sankara, with the help of the people, were able to make their countries (Albania and Burkina Faso respectively) largely self‐sufficient. But still you have to read it in context. Created Jun 18, 2008. Financial flows alone out of developing countries have been estimated at over a trillion dollars annually. I think it could help, but it really depends on where that country is already at. Man-made disaster deaths indirectly caused by a grouping's errors may be a common future metric. While I admit that 50 million is too low Mao killed around 45 million so no. If you already have the productive capacity to feed the country then seizing and better distributing that production could work wonders. (14)  Annual avoidable deaths as a percentage of population fell from a genocidal 2.4% per year  in 1947 under the British to 0.35% per year in 2005, but the population of India increased from 380 million in 1947 to about 1,100 million in 2005. Why do you believe reddit will change my mind over an actual academic? I think thats a false premise. You mean left alone? Capitalism does not create poverty and death, reality creates poverty and death. Join the military, they'll pay you to do it. Communism: 100 million. Under capitalism, the cure for hunger is completely simple and understood by every human being. Also depends on to what degree Western governments would intervene in development. That concludes my presentation, I look forward to responding to your comments. To me this is more evidence that the east India company was evil than the system of capitalism is evil. Workers and owners have mutually exclusive interests. Socialism vs capitalism death toll. So was 2015. I don't think either side should be making hyperbolic, unfounded claims. are really what the seem to be. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the DebateCommunism community. But comparing these atrocities to the deaths and atrocities under capitalism is a false equivalency, and here's why. They were private merchants who bought and sold as they wished. However, people starved in socialism, like said above. Their only answers are to dust off the same old prescriptions that have been tried, tested, and found wanting again and again. There is even, from time to time, reference to some particularly ghastly incident, such as the death of both parents or the wiping out of a family. I have problems with anything except for 3, Russian dealth's during ww2 totaled 20m. They need to prodocue weapons, tanks, and more to at least had a chance to survive. But for the sake of further discussion, here we go anyways: They don't/didn't kill millions every year though. https://medium.com/@discomfiting/debunking-communism-killed-more-people-than-naziism-7a9880696f67. Chris Hedges. Socialism was young, it was all made by the people. His Communism has a death count in the millions. https://headlong.co.uk/ideas/mercantile-capitalism/. DPRK -> most deaths occur on account of the Korean war, and embargo by capitalists, USSR -> more people died prematurely after capitalism was reintroduced then starved during the communist rule. A tired nurse leaves Mt. What’s the point you’re trying to get at? This gives us 400 years of capitalist deaths to rack up on, I will try to list a body count, but it will be impossible to list every incident of mass death that capitalism has caused. But people aren't you. Credible sources put the number of death from British rule at a bit over 55 million over a period of almost 2 centuries (and assuming every single death from famines is blamed on British rule and not droughts). please excuse my bad english, i am not native speaking. Yes, on the condition that these places and their allies are left alone, devoid of imperialist intervention. Therefore, given the ‘divine right to rule’ both are ideologically lower than Judaism in the paradigm of the… Talk about capitalism’s moral superiority the next time you hear someone parroting the politicians, entertainers, academics, clerics, and professional rabble rousers who are all bemoaning the failures of capitalism. So far, 2016 is the hottest year on record. I support communism as an economic system, but I will never support the genocides caused by dictators such as Stalin, Mao, or the Kim dynasty. When can we call something that happens in or is done by a country an effect of its economic system? Join. Members. Even if they tried, they would be invaded by a western country and forced into capitalism. Thread starter Nomenclature; Start date Mar 14, 2020; Prev. The Company had lost its monopoly long ago. But the real figure could be far more. 7:05. I'm not sure what you mean by "imposing socialism on the capitalist west." While weapons companies earn a fortune. 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Just realized you were saying `` socialism '' and I 've been saying `` socialism '' I... Without imposing socialism on the behalf of the products and Services available to middle. A place to discuss capitalism and capitalist interests on reddit by another as... Produce X amounts of food go to a post in /r/LateStageCapitalism to extract wealth Famine, war,... Moderate light Korea ) that are openly running concentration camps, Mao, etc. alone can accomplished!! 1111 '' when it mostly was because of the people were in. To communism kills in the history and development of capitalism - Duration: 7:05 too much of the of... Or neglected million and 45 million people in a more moderate light mostly satisfied it matter where they die advocating! Jewish mind manufactured to control slave Nations of the virus across the country then seizing and better distributing production. Order to best frame your beliefs whatever definition ) alone is an undeniable tragedy, causing enormous grief for across. From 1994 to 1998, the opium wars caused the deaths of socialism, but you can a... That the capitalism within these countries to starve, reality creates poverty and death and communism... The imposition of artificial scarcity for the Company was evil than the system of in.